Norman Geisler's objections:
1) “If ‘most of us most of the time come to our beliefs for a variety of reasons having little to do with empirical evidence and logical reasoning,’ then can we not assume that Loftus came to his atheistic views the same way?”
This is Mr. Geisler's objections to John Loftus' Outsider Test of Faith.
Here is the Outsider Test of Faith.
When believers criticize the other faiths they reject, they use reason and science to do so. They assume these other religions have the burden of proof. They assume human not divine authors to their holy book(s). They assume a human not a divine origin to their faiths.Believers do this when rejecting other faiths. So dispensing all of the red herrings about morality and a non-material universe, the OTF simply asks believers to do unto their own faith what they do unto other faiths. All it asks of them is to be consistent. The OTF asks why believers operate on a double standard. If that's how they reject other faiths then they should apply that same standard to their own. Let reason and science rather than faith be their guide. Assume your own faith has the burden of proof. Assume human rather than divine authors to your holy book(s) and see what you get. If there is a divine author behind the texts it should be known even with that initial skeptical assumption.
Okay, Objection No. 1.
My objection to Mr. Geisler's point here is that his is a political objection, which we can break down into two parts, which are presented to us as an 'if/then' proposition.
‘most of us most of the time come to our beliefs for a variety of reasons having little to do with empirical evidence and logical reasoning..'
Mr. Geisler is overgeneralizing here. Sure our parents beliefs were passed down to us while we were learning to speak, learning our place in the world, but even as youngsters still learning, we compare how words are used by others, which is empirical and logical.
If grandpa is joking around and tells us that the sky is green we'll quickly object that 'everyone else' knows that the sky is blue. We remember the data, mom talking about the nice blue sky today, dad agreeing, them talking about things being blue and the colour of those things being the colour of the sky, and so forth.
Of course I'm talking about how we learned when we were children and an even more political response to my example would be to get all philosophical on me here and argue with me about whether and under what circumstances the sky is actually blue.
In fact our grasp of reality is being constantly tested by everyone else and by ourselves from just about day one.
Point is that the very general, the most general case for Geisler's point isn't true although one's religious beliefs are included in everyones' lives too. i.e. Most will confirm that the sky is blue and most people in your life will confirm their religious beliefs too.
This is what the OTF is all about, and couching beliefs as stuff generally outside empirical evidence and logical reasoning, is nonsensical in the very general terms since we're not about to question all of our beliefs all the time, we've done the empirical data collecting long ago(blue is blue is blue) and our logical reasoning( the damn sky IS blue) ever since we knew the words.
"... can we not assume that Loftus came to his atheistic views the same way?”
The OTF is not about Loftus' beliefs and how he came to believe them, it's about how you can argue against faiths other than your own in one way but dare not argue for your own faith in that same way.
We can illustrate the disconnect easily enough, like one of those general I.Q. tests.
Pick out the one which doesn't fit.
1)Belief in ghosts
2)Belief in a supernatural realm
3)Belief in God
4)Belief that the motion of the stars and planets influence our lives.
5) Not believing that there are ghosts or a supernatural realm or a God or that the motion of the stars and planets influence our lives.
I know, I know, it's kind of tricky. I was thinking '4', since I don't believe in Astrology, then I realised that no matter if I believed any of the 'beliefs', no matter if any of the 'beliefs' were true, number 5 IS THE ODD MAN OUT!
As a theist(Christian, Muslim, Jew etc.) your likely to know all the semantic ducks and weaves and dodges such as Atheism is just another belief system, if I say it's not, it's just non-belief, you can retort, "Well, it's belief that there is no God then.", basically dragging non-beliers down that very disingenuous rabbit trail.
So, it would appear that our Geisler fellow, if not a completely disingenuous, intellectually dishonest asshole, is pandering to his audience who are a closed community who are more than willing to take for granted that atheism is a belief system.
Thursday, April 5, 2012
Thursday, December 1, 2011
What it means to me.
"Twas brillig, and the slithey toves did gyre and gymbol in the wabe
All mimsey were the borogoves, and the mome-wraths outgrabe."
This is the entire universe as it really is from your, or my, point of view, disregarding our relationships with each other. The Sun rises and sets every day no matter how you're getting on with the wife and kids, no matter who is vying for political power at the City Hall, the local district etc., no matter if you're a CEO or a janitor.
It conjures up a picnic scene where we are sitting, relaxed, knowing that things are happening off in the distance. Off in the distance there may be a village or even a big city where the hustlers are hustling and the bustlers are bustling, where they hustle and bustle day in and day out.
If we imagine the city empty of people, there it would be, brillig while off in the distance the busy are busying. It's just the first layer upon which everything else rests, it being explained that there are always, in fact, other thingies doing their thingy. The farmers are farming, the butchers are butching, the mosquitos are doing little fly stuff and so on.
There is always a scene upon which stuff is going to happen, but no matter what stuff happens the scene will tend to go back to being the scene.
After this we could add anything at all. For example, "Twas brillig, blah, blah, blah, 'then Eve gave an apple to Adam', or, 'that's when the President pushed the Red Button'".
The first couple of lines of Jabberwocky is the ultimate scene-setting, the 'when' and the 'where', the 'could be anywhere', the 'nothing to see here folks, unless there's something to see'.
But I've been trying to make you see, which in a way corrupts the whole idea. For you to really see, to really notice what I'm trying to mean, you have to find those moments where it's all just 'there' around you. You may notice it if you practice yoga, or if you have jogged far enough, what do I know, "I'm not a doctor dammit, I'm not an elevator!", to corrupt 'Bones' imfamous saying to my purposes here.
The Supertramp line from their song, "If everyone was listening.", ".. the stage is in darkness and clear..", kind of sums it up too.
Commercials use settings to create moods favourable to selling their product. They have an idea where their target audience are, as far as mood goes, by the show they are interrupting, which has a setting within your setting, then they add another 30 second setting over that.
Like you're at home where homey things are happening all around and you're watching Star Wars where Star-Warsy things are progressing and suddenly you're in 'the kitchen' and 'she' is worried that her pasta isn't going to be perfect! Recommendation? Well, that company's pasta is going to make 'her' pasta-worries disappear, and of course, your pasta-worries too! Then on to the next commercial where, you'll never guess but, there is a solution to your car-worries, yes there is.
Bit of a digression but, have you noticed that most new cars resemble a shoe? I'm tempted to say, "What's up with that?", but I don't want you to feel as if I'm droning on purposelessly.
But what does it mean? Not the stuff about the commercials, which I was trying to use to explain what the Hell I am meaning.
I think that the great Douglas Adams gave it a shot, the 'meaning' thing that is, with his, "Don't forget to bring your towel."
At this point I'm going a bit Monty Python on you, with, "I don't know, what the Hell does it mean to you?"
There's the comment section 'down there'. Let it out! You know, if the scene is set for you to do that at this time.
I, for one, think it has it's own meaning.
All mimsey were the borogoves, and the mome-wraths outgrabe."
This is the entire universe as it really is from your, or my, point of view, disregarding our relationships with each other. The Sun rises and sets every day no matter how you're getting on with the wife and kids, no matter who is vying for political power at the City Hall, the local district etc., no matter if you're a CEO or a janitor.
It conjures up a picnic scene where we are sitting, relaxed, knowing that things are happening off in the distance. Off in the distance there may be a village or even a big city where the hustlers are hustling and the bustlers are bustling, where they hustle and bustle day in and day out.
If we imagine the city empty of people, there it would be, brillig while off in the distance the busy are busying. It's just the first layer upon which everything else rests, it being explained that there are always, in fact, other thingies doing their thingy. The farmers are farming, the butchers are butching, the mosquitos are doing little fly stuff and so on.
There is always a scene upon which stuff is going to happen, but no matter what stuff happens the scene will tend to go back to being the scene.
After this we could add anything at all. For example, "Twas brillig, blah, blah, blah, 'then Eve gave an apple to Adam', or, 'that's when the President pushed the Red Button'".
The first couple of lines of Jabberwocky is the ultimate scene-setting, the 'when' and the 'where', the 'could be anywhere', the 'nothing to see here folks, unless there's something to see'.
But I've been trying to make you see, which in a way corrupts the whole idea. For you to really see, to really notice what I'm trying to mean, you have to find those moments where it's all just 'there' around you. You may notice it if you practice yoga, or if you have jogged far enough, what do I know, "I'm not a doctor dammit, I'm not an elevator!", to corrupt 'Bones' imfamous saying to my purposes here.
The Supertramp line from their song, "If everyone was listening.", ".. the stage is in darkness and clear..", kind of sums it up too.
Commercials use settings to create moods favourable to selling their product. They have an idea where their target audience are, as far as mood goes, by the show they are interrupting, which has a setting within your setting, then they add another 30 second setting over that.
Like you're at home where homey things are happening all around and you're watching Star Wars where Star-Warsy things are progressing and suddenly you're in 'the kitchen' and 'she' is worried that her pasta isn't going to be perfect! Recommendation? Well, that company's pasta is going to make 'her' pasta-worries disappear, and of course, your pasta-worries too! Then on to the next commercial where, you'll never guess but, there is a solution to your car-worries, yes there is.
Bit of a digression but, have you noticed that most new cars resemble a shoe? I'm tempted to say, "What's up with that?", but I don't want you to feel as if I'm droning on purposelessly.
But what does it mean? Not the stuff about the commercials, which I was trying to use to explain what the Hell I am meaning.
I think that the great Douglas Adams gave it a shot, the 'meaning' thing that is, with his, "Don't forget to bring your towel."
At this point I'm going a bit Monty Python on you, with, "I don't know, what the Hell does it mean to you?"
There's the comment section 'down there'. Let it out! You know, if the scene is set for you to do that at this time.
I, for one, think it has it's own meaning.
Friday, July 29, 2011
Talking to rednecks!
Me:- Hey Redneck, I noticed your anti-Obama post. I know that you're not a rich man, so I'm proud of you for wanting to shoulder more of the tax burden in your country.
"Broaden the tax base" is the operating phrase, which means, well, you'll be paying more. It's that simple. ... I hope you don't consider the word 'tax' a profane word. LOL I realise you're not going to believe me about that tax thing even tho' I live in B.C. and indeed we have a 12% Harmonized Sales Tax making 12 bucks worth of groceries cost 13 bucks. our B.C. Liberals are badly named they're very right wing.
Redneck1:- @ IAN- LOL!!!! I am for less government, which really means I'm Anti most of the bozo's in office today. And the national sales tax idea is not a bad idea, one I have pondered a lot latley.
Redneck2"- Well you all need to realize that they all ready get way more taxes than they need to take care of this country so more taxes is not going to help any thing except give them more to waste. A plague should wipe all politicians off the face of The earth so we can start over.
Me:- Oh, the idea is no new net taxes, so a few billionaires will get the appropriate giant cut in theirs while you'll get to pay 12% on top of the price you see on the shelf. See something for 12 bucks? That'll cost you $13.44! When you start paying a surtax on everything, if they don't just hide it in the cost, you'll be reminded every single time that you buy something that your State and your Country is not one tiny bit better off for it.
And Redneck2, you're not going to get less government, just less governing. Some pictures of guys clearing the brush down on the ranch, that there had to be worth the 400 grand a year for the Prez, yea?
Redneck2:- Yes there will be less govering caues it will cause utter chaos and throw the world in a panic, in which case I would be way more happy to deal with than what we have now! Case closed.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There we have a peek into the mind of madness, I suppose. Redneck2 WANTS utter chaos, he's rooting for utter chaos, case closed!
"Broaden the tax base" is the operating phrase, which means, well, you'll be paying more. It's that simple. ... I hope you don't consider the word 'tax' a profane word. LOL I realise you're not going to believe me about that tax thing even tho' I live in B.C. and indeed we have a 12% Harmonized Sales Tax making 12 bucks worth of groceries cost 13 bucks. our B.C. Liberals are badly named they're very right wing.
Redneck1:- @ IAN- LOL!!!! I am for less government, which really means I'm Anti most of the bozo's in office today. And the national sales tax idea is not a bad idea, one I have pondered a lot latley.
Redneck2"- Well you all need to realize that they all ready get way more taxes than they need to take care of this country so more taxes is not going to help any thing except give them more to waste. A plague should wipe all politicians off the face of The earth so we can start over.
Me:- Oh, the idea is no new net taxes, so a few billionaires will get the appropriate giant cut in theirs while you'll get to pay 12% on top of the price you see on the shelf. See something for 12 bucks? That'll cost you $13.44! When you start paying a surtax on everything, if they don't just hide it in the cost, you'll be reminded every single time that you buy something that your State and your Country is not one tiny bit better off for it.
And Redneck2, you're not going to get less government, just less governing. Some pictures of guys clearing the brush down on the ranch, that there had to be worth the 400 grand a year for the Prez, yea?
Redneck2:- Yes there will be less govering caues it will cause utter chaos and throw the world in a panic, in which case I would be way more happy to deal with than what we have now! Case closed.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There we have a peek into the mind of madness, I suppose. Redneck2 WANTS utter chaos, he's rooting for utter chaos, case closed!
Saturday, July 16, 2011
Two dogs humping.
Imagine looking around at reality without having any prejudices concerning what it's all about, just 'being there' observing, noticing the kinds of things going on and so on and so forth, then being told by someone that bestiality and homosexuality were not natural.
"Well, I don't know about you but when I look around I see dogs naturally being drawn to the smell of a bitch in heat and being so overcome by it that they'll hump just about anything. What better advocate of 'natural' could you have than animals doing what animals do?"
This idea, that what animals do sometimes just isn't natural, seems to stretch the meaning of the word 'natural' to it's breaking point, and I don't think that this goes totally unnoticed by people.
Seems to me that this is an area where religion is deliberately clashing with reality, making it's point that it can convince you of anything at all really.
Interspecies sex you say? TOTALLY UNNATURAL! DISGUSTING! A dog humping your leg now, now THAT is natural, he's just a dog and doesn't know any better than to be, you know, unnatural.
Isn't that the point, when ideas are brought together and they don't match up, where you realise that this religion 'thing' is just fucking with your mind? Hey, I'm a product of my environment, it gives me 'the creeps' just to think about dogs humping humans or vice versa and I'm not advocating it as something I'd like to see on the way to pick up a Big Breakfast. I'm just saying that it's not not natural, or it wouldn't be not natural.
I think that part of the problem there is that we get programmed with the notion that natural is good but the 'natural' we're thinking of that is good doesn't include yucky stuff like sex or poo or sex in the poo-hole or 'GAWDFORBID' poo in the sex-hole! YUCK!!!
I just don't think we're taking reality into account when we avoid the idea that we're walking bags of shit and that if it could be put to a life for life vote, just our own personal space would be billions, if not trillions to one in favour of poop, yummy poop!
Yea, I understand that E. Coli doesn't have a vote and shouldn't have a vote in the matter, I'm just pointing out that the idea that life is sacred is very specific to human life or at least 'higher forms of life', or at least 'naked-eye-visible' life, which just has to count when we're discussing whether we're 'accountable' for what we do with fertilized human eggs surely? It's just that there's another thing that is deemed 'not natural' therefore unGodly by the religious when controlling your own(if you're a woman) body seems at least 'as natural' to me.
I think it says something about us that comedians make good livings off of exposing our hyp9crisy when it comes to 'nature', you know, along the lines of, "By applause who here is kind of disgusted by poop?", followed by, "Now, by applause, who here refuses to take a shit on account of their disgust with it?"
What is that I hear you think, "But we're naturally disgusted by poop!"? Yes, yes and dogs are naturally NOT disgusted by eating a good lump of poo if they happen on one, isn't THAT right?
Camus said that you either have to admit that it's all just absurd or get yourself some religion, but I suppose, in this rant, I'm saying that even if you do get religion it's absurd anyways, you've just blocked yourself from thinking it is.
"Thank goodness" hardly anyone reads the shit I micro-publish anyways.
:o)
"Well, I don't know about you but when I look around I see dogs naturally being drawn to the smell of a bitch in heat and being so overcome by it that they'll hump just about anything. What better advocate of 'natural' could you have than animals doing what animals do?"
This idea, that what animals do sometimes just isn't natural, seems to stretch the meaning of the word 'natural' to it's breaking point, and I don't think that this goes totally unnoticed by people.
Seems to me that this is an area where religion is deliberately clashing with reality, making it's point that it can convince you of anything at all really.
Interspecies sex you say? TOTALLY UNNATURAL! DISGUSTING! A dog humping your leg now, now THAT is natural, he's just a dog and doesn't know any better than to be, you know, unnatural.
Isn't that the point, when ideas are brought together and they don't match up, where you realise that this religion 'thing' is just fucking with your mind? Hey, I'm a product of my environment, it gives me 'the creeps' just to think about dogs humping humans or vice versa and I'm not advocating it as something I'd like to see on the way to pick up a Big Breakfast. I'm just saying that it's not not natural, or it wouldn't be not natural.
I think that part of the problem there is that we get programmed with the notion that natural is good but the 'natural' we're thinking of that is good doesn't include yucky stuff like sex or poo or sex in the poo-hole or 'GAWDFORBID' poo in the sex-hole! YUCK!!!
I just don't think we're taking reality into account when we avoid the idea that we're walking bags of shit and that if it could be put to a life for life vote, just our own personal space would be billions, if not trillions to one in favour of poop, yummy poop!
Yea, I understand that E. Coli doesn't have a vote and shouldn't have a vote in the matter, I'm just pointing out that the idea that life is sacred is very specific to human life or at least 'higher forms of life', or at least 'naked-eye-visible' life, which just has to count when we're discussing whether we're 'accountable' for what we do with fertilized human eggs surely? It's just that there's another thing that is deemed 'not natural' therefore unGodly by the religious when controlling your own(if you're a woman) body seems at least 'as natural' to me.
I think it says something about us that comedians make good livings off of exposing our hyp9crisy when it comes to 'nature', you know, along the lines of, "By applause who here is kind of disgusted by poop?", followed by, "Now, by applause, who here refuses to take a shit on account of their disgust with it?"
What is that I hear you think, "But we're naturally disgusted by poop!"? Yes, yes and dogs are naturally NOT disgusted by eating a good lump of poo if they happen on one, isn't THAT right?
Camus said that you either have to admit that it's all just absurd or get yourself some religion, but I suppose, in this rant, I'm saying that even if you do get religion it's absurd anyways, you've just blocked yourself from thinking it is.
"Thank goodness" hardly anyone reads the shit I micro-publish anyways.
:o)
Wednesday, July 13, 2011
Spiritualism/Spirituality
'It' came up again in the conversation recently.
"What about emotions transmitted over distance?"
A couple of questions clarifying exactly what it was that was being asked, 'til we realised that it's that feeling you get that Grandma(for example) isn't doing so well, then you find out, "Oh. My. GOD! Grandma's had a stroke, I 'felt it'!"
Skeptics can point to the feelings you get sometimes that something is wrong when it turns out that there's nothing amiss. I don't think this helps much. True Believers are as apt to dismiss that as skeptics are to dismiss spiritual explanations. I don't think there is anything at all that one can say to a True Believer which could possibly step in between their idea that their feeling of impending doom for a loved one and the conclusion, that a loved one is in peril is valid evidence for, at the very least, an emotional level telepathy.
There's something seriously wrong with us, I think, when a huge portion of us take it for granted that there is some kind of mysterious force, more or less keeping us in contact with each other, but I do think I know it roots.
Have you ever noticed how you feel different when you are walking along the street by yourself compared to walking along with someone, or even with a dog?
Have you even noticed how the house feels different when there's someone else home?
I think it just has to do with how our brain works, how we are just paying attention to the fact that the wife is in the house somewhere, or that the dog is in the corner, or similarly that we're pacing our walk to accomodate our companion?
That there is your basic 'emotional communication', you ARE 'attached' to that other because you're getting clues, a breath, a footstep, some sound perhaps at the edge of our hearing range which is nevertheless comforting.
I think it's that we react, not to 'the situation', but to the 'change in the situation', which is converted by us to imagining that we are reacting to the situation, there's not much difference in the framing of it.
"We had a good walk.", means, more or less, "No uncomfortable situations arose.", and the same with other situations where your home with someone just being there.
Funny thing happens when you're walking along with a companion and they don't do what it is that you think they should be doing, if for example you're walking and talking, look around and they're not there!
The same kind of thing happens when you're interacting with your companion and they start playing with you, disagreeing with everything you say, disagreeing with the you that is you, they're playing with the emotional bond that you feel you have with them.
I'm trying to paint a picture of the emotional stew that is our daily lives, all our friends, relatives, pets, strangers, other peoples' pets and so on provoke emotional reactions in us which becomes our background, part of the 'I' that I project onto others and part of the 'you' and the 'him/her' that she/she projects onto me.
A stray thought of Grandma coupled with an odd feeling that something is amiss is likely not unusual since Grandma is likely to be old and I might feel that it's been too long since I've contacted her. Couple that with news that something has befallen Grandma and we have the makings of a hit, an instance of long distance emotional communication. That same thought with a quick call confirming Grandma is fine, isn't a miss, "What? I was merely concerned that I hadn't heard from Grandma for a bit is all!"
How simple is it for the True Believer to use such mundane emotional connections to their advantage and declare the rest of us, who are likely in the minority, closed minded?
"What about emotions transmitted over distance?"
A couple of questions clarifying exactly what it was that was being asked, 'til we realised that it's that feeling you get that Grandma(for example) isn't doing so well, then you find out, "Oh. My. GOD! Grandma's had a stroke, I 'felt it'!"
Skeptics can point to the feelings you get sometimes that something is wrong when it turns out that there's nothing amiss. I don't think this helps much. True Believers are as apt to dismiss that as skeptics are to dismiss spiritual explanations. I don't think there is anything at all that one can say to a True Believer which could possibly step in between their idea that their feeling of impending doom for a loved one and the conclusion, that a loved one is in peril is valid evidence for, at the very least, an emotional level telepathy.
There's something seriously wrong with us, I think, when a huge portion of us take it for granted that there is some kind of mysterious force, more or less keeping us in contact with each other, but I do think I know it roots.
Have you ever noticed how you feel different when you are walking along the street by yourself compared to walking along with someone, or even with a dog?
Have you even noticed how the house feels different when there's someone else home?
I think it just has to do with how our brain works, how we are just paying attention to the fact that the wife is in the house somewhere, or that the dog is in the corner, or similarly that we're pacing our walk to accomodate our companion?
That there is your basic 'emotional communication', you ARE 'attached' to that other because you're getting clues, a breath, a footstep, some sound perhaps at the edge of our hearing range which is nevertheless comforting.
I think it's that we react, not to 'the situation', but to the 'change in the situation', which is converted by us to imagining that we are reacting to the situation, there's not much difference in the framing of it.
"We had a good walk.", means, more or less, "No uncomfortable situations arose.", and the same with other situations where your home with someone just being there.
Funny thing happens when you're walking along with a companion and they don't do what it is that you think they should be doing, if for example you're walking and talking, look around and they're not there!
The same kind of thing happens when you're interacting with your companion and they start playing with you, disagreeing with everything you say, disagreeing with the you that is you, they're playing with the emotional bond that you feel you have with them.
I'm trying to paint a picture of the emotional stew that is our daily lives, all our friends, relatives, pets, strangers, other peoples' pets and so on provoke emotional reactions in us which becomes our background, part of the 'I' that I project onto others and part of the 'you' and the 'him/her' that she/she projects onto me.
A stray thought of Grandma coupled with an odd feeling that something is amiss is likely not unusual since Grandma is likely to be old and I might feel that it's been too long since I've contacted her. Couple that with news that something has befallen Grandma and we have the makings of a hit, an instance of long distance emotional communication. That same thought with a quick call confirming Grandma is fine, isn't a miss, "What? I was merely concerned that I hadn't heard from Grandma for a bit is all!"
How simple is it for the True Believer to use such mundane emotional connections to their advantage and declare the rest of us, who are likely in the minority, closed minded?
Tuesday, June 28, 2011
Alan Roebuck said it! Guess that must settle it?
On Evangelical Realism, I said,
" [Mr.Roebuck said, quote]“…it is absurd and dangerous (not to mention invalid) to reject theistic evidence unless you have very good evidence for naturalism being true.”[end quote]
Not only shifting the burden of proof, sneeringly shifting the burden of proof!
Are we going to hear a couple of ‘nuggets’ which compose this ‘mountain’ of theistic evidence?
I doubt it.",
to which Mr.Roebuck replied,
"Your responses so far have been underwhelming. Perhaps this is just a site where atheists meet to kibbitz and I have committed a faux pas by intruding on a private conversation and asking that you justify your atheism. But you criticized my essay, so I defended myself. I wonder if you can defend yourselves.
My language is harsh, but fair and not insulting. Since I have to interact with you (I have to defend my essay), I might as well try to knock some sense into you."
Okay, I think that Mr. Roebuck is tacitly admitting that this is just a debate(let the best debater win!), and subject to each and every rhetorical trick in the book.
"There is no symmetry between our positions. Your position is defined by the “No!” you say to a vast sum of evidence and arguments. My position is that some of this sum is valid, and you need to justify your rejection of obviously good evidence. If you cannot justify it, you are probably wrong."
Seems to me that Mr. Roebuck hasn't read many atheist blogs if he doesn't know, and he doesn't seem to know that what atheist bloggers do is point out fallacies in anything remotely regarded as 'evidence' by theists. So, apparently we are being invited to step out of reality into Mr. Roebuck's 'world' as per usual when it comes to Christian apologists.
"Are you even aware of your own reasons for rejecting all the evidence?"
Indeed.
" How much of the evidence do you even know?"
Quite a bit more than I need to know to decide my position on this.
" Are you capable of doing more than sneering?"
This is a bit 'to quoque'ish, don't you think. I say that he is 'sneeringly shifting the burden of proof' and would you look at that, didn't even bother to look up a synonym!
"Do you know how one might investigate something that is not physical?"
Sure, you investigate something that isn't physical by it's effects on the physical world.
" There is at least one non-physical thing that you know exists: Your consciousness. Don’t say “Consciousness is caused only by the functioning of brain cells.” Even if that were true, consciousness itself, the thing you experience, is obviously not brain cells, nor is it functioning of brain cells. Your consciousness does not have weight or a chemical makeup, so consciousness does not equal brain cells. And your consciousness cannot be measured in volts and amps, so consciousness does not equal brain cell activity. Your consciousness is an irreducible thing, and non-material.
So at least one non-material thing exists. (Technically, I’m claiming it’s a “substance,” that is, something that exists in and of itself, and not as a property of something else.) Therefore other non-material things may exist.
We don’t have a direct experience of God, as we do of our minds. So how, in general, does one discern whether a non-material thing exists? Not by empirical evidence, because we cannot detect a non-material thing with our senses. Some other line of reasoning must be used.
The basic evidence for God is that the various aspects of reality cannot generate themselves, and therefore need a cause. Here are brief summaries of two lines of argumentation.
The universe (including space and time) did not always exist. Therefore something outside of matter, space and time caused it. Sure, this analysis does not show that the cause is God. But it does shows that the cause is not the matter that you tacitly assume causes everything.
Darwinists only believe that Evolution can account for the origin and development of all life because they assume God did not do it, and therefore matter is all that could have done it. But they are assuming their answer, not proving it. It is more plausible (unless you have an irrational presupposition of naturalism) that an intelligent Being caused life.
Question: If one does not beg the question by assuming that God is impossible, why specifically is a naturalistic explanation of the origins of the cosmos and of life more plausible than a theistic one?
Saying “science has proved Evolution” is an invalid answer. Science assumes the materialism that I am asking you to justify.
Saying “The Bible is full of mistakes” is in invalid answer. Mistakes do not justify naturalism.
Saying “Religious believer say and do many evil and foolish things” is an invalid answer. Mistakes and evil do not justify naturalism.
Can you justify your rejection of all the evidence?"
I haven't even read all of this yet, there's just so much meat here.
So far I've replied thus,
"Mr. Roebuck says, “There is at least one non-physical thing that you know exists: Your consciousness.”
Consciousness is a process or a word, the first word in this sentence. Now we both know we’re not talking about the word ‘consciousness’ here,so an analogy to consciousness would be ‘the flowingness’ of a river. The ‘flowingness’ is not the water itself, much like the consciousness is not the chemical reactions themselves.
Hey, you came here to teach us something, perhaps you might learn something instead, Mr.Roebuck?
I am underwhelmed(to use your word) that you can point out ‘things’ which don’t materially exist. I think you’re just mixing and matching your categories here.
(Please come to my blog and defend yourself there too! )",
but there's more coming!!!
" [Mr.Roebuck said, quote]“…it is absurd and dangerous (not to mention invalid) to reject theistic evidence unless you have very good evidence for naturalism being true.”[end quote]
Not only shifting the burden of proof, sneeringly shifting the burden of proof!
Are we going to hear a couple of ‘nuggets’ which compose this ‘mountain’ of theistic evidence?
I doubt it.",
to which Mr.Roebuck replied,
"Your responses so far have been underwhelming. Perhaps this is just a site where atheists meet to kibbitz and I have committed a faux pas by intruding on a private conversation and asking that you justify your atheism. But you criticized my essay, so I defended myself. I wonder if you can defend yourselves.
My language is harsh, but fair and not insulting. Since I have to interact with you (I have to defend my essay), I might as well try to knock some sense into you."
Okay, I think that Mr. Roebuck is tacitly admitting that this is just a debate(let the best debater win!), and subject to each and every rhetorical trick in the book.
"There is no symmetry between our positions. Your position is defined by the “No!” you say to a vast sum of evidence and arguments. My position is that some of this sum is valid, and you need to justify your rejection of obviously good evidence. If you cannot justify it, you are probably wrong."
Seems to me that Mr. Roebuck hasn't read many atheist blogs if he doesn't know, and he doesn't seem to know that what atheist bloggers do is point out fallacies in anything remotely regarded as 'evidence' by theists. So, apparently we are being invited to step out of reality into Mr. Roebuck's 'world' as per usual when it comes to Christian apologists.
"Are you even aware of your own reasons for rejecting all the evidence?"
Indeed.
" How much of the evidence do you even know?"
Quite a bit more than I need to know to decide my position on this.
" Are you capable of doing more than sneering?"
This is a bit 'to quoque'ish, don't you think. I say that he is 'sneeringly shifting the burden of proof' and would you look at that, didn't even bother to look up a synonym!
"Do you know how one might investigate something that is not physical?"
Sure, you investigate something that isn't physical by it's effects on the physical world.
" There is at least one non-physical thing that you know exists: Your consciousness. Don’t say “Consciousness is caused only by the functioning of brain cells.” Even if that were true, consciousness itself, the thing you experience, is obviously not brain cells, nor is it functioning of brain cells. Your consciousness does not have weight or a chemical makeup, so consciousness does not equal brain cells. And your consciousness cannot be measured in volts and amps, so consciousness does not equal brain cell activity. Your consciousness is an irreducible thing, and non-material.
So at least one non-material thing exists. (Technically, I’m claiming it’s a “substance,” that is, something that exists in and of itself, and not as a property of something else.) Therefore other non-material things may exist.
We don’t have a direct experience of God, as we do of our minds. So how, in general, does one discern whether a non-material thing exists? Not by empirical evidence, because we cannot detect a non-material thing with our senses. Some other line of reasoning must be used.
The basic evidence for God is that the various aspects of reality cannot generate themselves, and therefore need a cause. Here are brief summaries of two lines of argumentation.
The universe (including space and time) did not always exist. Therefore something outside of matter, space and time caused it. Sure, this analysis does not show that the cause is God. But it does shows that the cause is not the matter that you tacitly assume causes everything.
Darwinists only believe that Evolution can account for the origin and development of all life because they assume God did not do it, and therefore matter is all that could have done it. But they are assuming their answer, not proving it. It is more plausible (unless you have an irrational presupposition of naturalism) that an intelligent Being caused life.
Question: If one does not beg the question by assuming that God is impossible, why specifically is a naturalistic explanation of the origins of the cosmos and of life more plausible than a theistic one?
Saying “science has proved Evolution” is an invalid answer. Science assumes the materialism that I am asking you to justify.
Saying “The Bible is full of mistakes” is in invalid answer. Mistakes do not justify naturalism.
Saying “Religious believer say and do many evil and foolish things” is an invalid answer. Mistakes and evil do not justify naturalism.
Can you justify your rejection of all the evidence?"
I haven't even read all of this yet, there's just so much meat here.
So far I've replied thus,
"Mr. Roebuck says, “There is at least one non-physical thing that you know exists: Your consciousness.”
Consciousness is a process or a word, the first word in this sentence. Now we both know we’re not talking about the word ‘consciousness’ here,so an analogy to consciousness would be ‘the flowingness’ of a river. The ‘flowingness’ is not the water itself, much like the consciousness is not the chemical reactions themselves.
Hey, you came here to teach us something, perhaps you might learn something instead, Mr.Roebuck?
I am underwhelmed(to use your word) that you can point out ‘things’ which don’t materially exist. I think you’re just mixing and matching your categories here.
(Please come to my blog and defend yourself there too! )",
but there's more coming!!!
Saturday, June 25, 2011
Everything...
What is WRONG with everyone?
I noticed that a lot of people, too many people are more than willing to stretch a 4 by 3 picture onto a 9 by 16 screen.
This makes me crazy. These people should have been drowned when they were kittens, in fact this explains the GOP and fucking EVERYTHING!!
I noticed that a lot of people, too many people are more than willing to stretch a 4 by 3 picture onto a 9 by 16 screen.
This makes me crazy. These people should have been drowned when they were kittens, in fact this explains the GOP and fucking EVERYTHING!!
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